Niels1 skrev:Det som TheCzech sagde, og så kan du jo også prøve
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding/the_oneday_arm_cure

Jeg synes jeg har læst eller hørt et sted at pyramidetræning er det bedste program til at opnå størst muskelmasse. Jeg skal ikke kunne sige om det er noget jeg bilder mig ind eller hvad, men jeg synes nu jeg har læst det. Er det rigtigt. Og hvis ikke hvad for et program synes i er bedst til at opnå størst muskelmasse.

kaje skrev:Jeg synes jeg har læst eller hørt et sted at pyramidetræning er det bedste program til at opnå størst muskelmasse. Jeg skal ikke kunne sige om det er noget jeg bilder mig ind eller hvad, men jeg synes nu jeg har læst det. Er det rigtigt. Og hvis ikke hvad for et program synes i er bedst til at opnå størst muskelmasse.

kaje skrev:Hvad mener du med at det ikke er optimalt?? Hvad mener du da der er det mest effektive program.. når det gælder muskelmasse??

1. Pyramid training

Teddy is right about pyramid training. It IS an archaic way to organize your sets and reps. As Vladimir Zatsiorsky says in his book: "Since 1964, pyramids have been virtually excluded from the training of elite athletes". Basically the russians found out many many years ago that pyramids was NOT an optimal way of organizing the sets and reps. Unfortunately the bodybuilding industry has always lagged behind, when it comes to scientific training. The old myths seem to die hard, and training is only starting to get more scientific with new systems like HST. The russians have used science to their advantage for years, and if we look at the results in strength oriented sports, we can see that it certainly works. But its easy to quote authors, and let them carry your argument for you. Instead I will try to explain why pyramid training is NOT good. Anyone who has just the basic understanding of physiology and how the neuromuscular system works, will understand the points and see that pyramid training is not the way to go.

When you train using pyramids where you start with high reps, and finish with low reps, you deplete your ATP reserves. If you look at it isolated, that wont be a problem if all the sets in a pyramid had the same growth potential, but as we will see soon that just isnt the case. Because we cant ignore the level of conditioning. Whenever you lift a weight, the body will adapt to that weight, and after a short while that weight wont have any growth potential at all, because the muscles have conditioned themselves to that specific tension level. We all know people who look the same year after year, eventhough they train really really hard. Thats because failure sets where you use almost the same weight week after week, wont have a growth potential eventhough the sessions are downright hard. Here the progressive resistance principle rule. Without progession you wont grow. That brings us back to the pyramids. If I start with 15 reps at 200 pounds, and finish with 5 reps at 300 pounds, my muscles will condition themselves to 300 pounds within a few weeks. When that happens, anything below 300 pounds wont cause an adaptive response at all. And thats the core problem with pyramids. Your muscles will condition themselves to the weights at the end of the pyramid, which means that the light weights at the start of the pyramid is just a waste of time. But there is another problem too.

When you do high reps, you fatigue the central- and pheripheral nervous system, and the muscles will produce waste products (which do have a positive effect on the growth potential, through different signaling processes), which make the problem even worse. Because waste products make the neural efficiency worse. So in the end the force development potential is lowered when we come to the heavy sets. If we agree that the heavy weights have the biggest growth potential, then we are in trouble here too. And if we dont agree about that, then you better read on in the next praragraph.

2. High reps vs. low reps

The discussion about what causes hypertrophy the best, people seem to ignore the basics of muscle growth. What is the primary cause of muscle growth ?? ITS TENSION. Every single scientific paper you can find on muscle growth agrees that tension causes intramuscular signaling, which kickstarts the very complicated growth processes. But tension alone cant do it. If tension alone did it, then heavy singles would be the best way to induce hypertrophy. Unfortunately it doesnt work that way. Because the muscles need to be under tension for a prolonged period, to be forced into growth. That is what people call TUT, or Time under Tension. Just how long the muscles need to be under tension, is still being argued, but it is proberly not wise to go under 5 reps. The best hypertrophy rep range is proberly in the range of 5-15 reps. BUT THERE IS NOT A BEST NUMBER OF REPS. It all depends on the level on conditioning. If we look at it isolated, then 5 reps would be the best, as we use the heaviest weights here, and that induces the highest level of tension. But we cant look at it isolated, because we cant train at our 5RM all the time without stagnating. Therefore it would be wise to start at 15 reps, and cycle our training, so that we start light and increase the weight over the weeks, and end on heavy sets of 5 in the last few weeks. Thats exactly how the HST people does it, and it makes a lot of sense, if we look at it scientifically.

3. High reps are more safe than low reps

Thats just not true. If we look at it theoretically, then it has some truth value, because heavy weights will cause more damage than light weight. But in the real world, thats not how things work. When doing high reps, the fatigue level are much higher, and lifting technique is often worsened because of that fatigue. And the number one cause of injuries is bad technique. Another problem is that high reps tend to tire the supporting muscles first. And when the supporting muscles give out, and the big muscles are asking to keep going, then you are asking for trouble.

Oh, and the guy who said he knew a lot of powerlifters and strongmen who used pyramids. I know a lot of bodybuilders from the Mr Olympia who does double split training and uses 5 different exercises for every bodypart. We all know thats a vague argument. You can get the best results in the world with the worst training principles, if you have the right genetics and/or use performance enhancing drugs. Fact is, that no one who has any scientific knowledge about training today, will claim that pyramids are an optimal way to train. Sure, pyramids can work. But there is much, MUCH better ways to organize your training.

TheCzech skrev:

kaje skrev:Hvad mener du med at det ikke er optimalt?? Hvad mener du da der er det mest effektive program.. når det gælder muskelmasse??

Citat Thomas Jagd:

1. Pyramid training

Teddy is right about pyramid training. It IS an archaic way to organize your sets and reps. As Vladimir Zatsiorsky says in his book: "Since 1964, pyramids have been virtually excluded from the training of elite athletes". Basically the russians found out many many years ago that pyramids was NOT an optimal way of organizing the sets and reps. Unfortunately the bodybuilding industry has always lagged behind, when it comes to scientific training. The old myths seem to die hard, and training is only starting to get more scientific with new systems like HST. The russians have used science to their advantage for years, and if we look at the results in strength oriented sports, we can see that it certainly works. But its easy to quote authors, and let them carry your argument for you. Instead I will try to explain why pyramid training is NOT good. Anyone who has just the basic understanding of physiology and how the neuromuscular system works, will understand the points and see that pyramid training is not the way to go.

When you train using pyramids where you start with high reps, and finish with low reps, you deplete your ATP reserves. If you look at it isolated, that wont be a problem if all the sets in a pyramid had the same growth potential, but as we will see soon that just isnt the case. Because we cant ignore the level of conditioning. Whenever you lift a weight, the body will adapt to that weight, and after a short while that weight wont have any growth potential at all, because the muscles have conditioned themselves to that specific tension level. We all know people who look the same year after year, eventhough they train really really hard. Thats because failure sets where you use almost the same weight week after week, wont have a growth potential eventhough the sessions are downright hard. Here the progressive resistance principle rule. Without progession you wont grow. That brings us back to the pyramids. If I start with 15 reps at 200 pounds, and finish with 5 reps at 300 pounds, my muscles will condition themselves to 300 pounds within a few weeks. When that happens, anything below 300 pounds wont cause an adaptive response at all. And thats the core problem with pyramids. Your muscles will condition themselves to the weights at the end of the pyramid, which means that the light weights at the start of the pyramid is just a waste of time. But there is another problem too.

When you do high reps, you fatigue the central- and pheripheral nervous system, and the muscles will produce waste products (which do have a positive effect on the growth potential, through different signaling processes), which make the problem even worse. Because waste products make the neural efficiency worse. So in the end the force development potential is lowered when we come to the heavy sets. If we agree that the heavy weights have the biggest growth potential, then we are in trouble here too. And if we dont agree about that, then you better read on in the next praragraph.

2. High reps vs. low reps

The discussion about what causes hypertrophy the best, people seem to ignore the basics of muscle growth. What is the primary cause of muscle growth ?? ITS TENSION. Every single scientific paper you can find on muscle growth agrees that tension causes intramuscular signaling, which kickstarts the very complicated growth processes. But tension alone cant do it. If tension alone did it, then heavy singles would be the best way to induce hypertrophy. Unfortunately it doesnt work that way. Because the muscles need to be under tension for a prolonged period, to be forced into growth. That is what people call TUT, or Time under Tension. Just how long the muscles need to be under tension, is still being argued, but it is proberly not wise to go under 5 reps. The best hypertrophy rep range is proberly in the range of 5-15 reps. BUT THERE IS NOT A BEST NUMBER OF REPS. It all depends on the level on conditioning. If we look at it isolated, then 5 reps would be the best, as we use the heaviest weights here, and that induces the highest level of tension. But we cant look at it isolated, because we cant train at our 5RM all the time without stagnating. Therefore it would be wise to start at 15 reps, and cycle our training, so that we start light and increase the weight over the weeks, and end on heavy sets of 5 in the last few weeks. Thats exactly how the HST people does it, and it makes a lot of sense, if we look at it scientifically.

3. High reps are more safe than low reps

Thats just not true. If we look at it theoretically, then it has some truth value, because heavy weights will cause more damage than light weight. But in the real world, thats not how things work. When doing high reps, the fatigue level are much higher, and lifting technique is often worsened because of that fatigue. And the number one cause of injuries is bad technique. Another problem is that high reps tend to tire the supporting muscles first. And when the supporting muscles give out, and the big muscles are asking to keep going, then you are asking for trouble.

Oh, and the guy who said he knew a lot of powerlifters and strongmen who used pyramids. I know a lot of bodybuilders from the Mr Olympia who does double split training and uses 5 different exercises for every bodypart. We all know thats a vague argument. You can get the best results in the world with the worst training principles, if you have the right genetics and/or use performance enhancing drugs. Fact is, that no one who has any scientific knowledge about training today, will claim that pyramids are an optimal way to train. Sure, pyramids can work. But there is much, MUCH better ways to organize your training.

kaje skrev:Det var ikke lige det jeg søgte svar på.. Jeg forstod bare ikke hvad du mente.... Jeg ville bare vide hvad du mener er det effektiveste program når det gælder muskelmasse..

kaje skrev:progesion... det er noget med hvor meget tid man bruger på træning?? eller?

kaje skrev:Det var ikke lige det jeg søgte svar på.. Jeg forstod bare ikke hvad du mente.... Jeg ville bare vide hvad du mener er det effektiveste program når det gælder muskelmasse..

kaje skrev:Så forstår jeg ikk når the czech siger at jeg skal benytte mig af progession... det kan jeg da ikke benytte mig af når du, moqensen, siger det er noget der kommer med tiden.. sådan forstod jeg ihvert fald at du mente det...

kaje skrev:Så forstår jeg ikk når the czech siger at jeg skal benytte mig af progession... det kan jeg da ikke benytte mig af når du, moqensen, siger det er noget der kommer med tiden.. sådan forstod jeg ihvert fald at du mente det...

kaje skrev:Så forstår jeg ikk når the czech siger at jeg skal benytte mig af progession... det kan jeg da ikke benytte mig af når du, moqensen, siger det er noget der kommer med tiden.. sådan forstod jeg ihvert fald at du mente det...

kaje skrev:Jeg kan da ikke tro på at hvis man træner alt andet end arme... så bliver ens arme større end hvis man isoleret træner arme..??

kaje skrev:Old school.. det nytter bare ikke noget når man ikke fatter halvdelen af de udtryk der er brugt i teksten... Jeg er ny herpå sitet. ... Jeg har også skimmet teksten igennem..
Er det så rigtigt at forfatteren vil have mig til at følge dette program eller hvad?:
Mandag:

Squat: 3 sæt x 6 reps
Stiff-legged dødløft: 3 sæt x 6 reps
Close grip bænkpres: 6 sæt x 6 reps
Close grip military: 6 sæt x 6 reps
Chinups: 6 sæt x 6 reps
V-bar Pullups: 6 sæt x 6 reps

Onsdag:

Dødløft: 3 sæt x 6 reps
Benpres: 3 sæt x 6 reps
Close grip incline bænkpres: 6 sæt x 6 reps
Close grip board presses: 6 sæt x 6 reps
Chinups: 6 sæt x 6 reps
Yates rows: 6 sæt x 6 reps

Fredag:

Squat: 3 sæt x 6 reps
Stiff-legged dødløft: 3 sæt x 6 reps
Close grip bænkpres: 6 sæt x 6 reps
Dips: 6 sæt x 6 reps
Chinups: 6 sæt x 6 reps
V-bar Pullups: 6 sæt x 6 reps

kaje skrev:Okay.. tak old School..
Men alle de der øvelser er jo til bryst og andre ting man skal have en masse speciel udstyr som fx... bænk og en hel masse kg... jeg har kun en 10- kilos vægt at gøre godt med...