PWO shake --> Med henblik på en af artiklerne

Hey Hej

artikler/kostogkosttilskud/Thewindowofopportunity.php

Der står der at man skal indtage 1g carbs pr. kg. kropsvægt hvilket vil svare til omkring 80 for mit vedkommende, hvilket er ekstremt mange kcal'ere når man er på cut.

Kan det passe at de har skruet antalet ivejret i artiklen for at være på den sikre side?

Jeg har kritiseret det før, da der i artiklen 'cut til sommer' står: "Der er ikke dokumenteret en ekstra positiv effekt af at indtage mere end cirka 20 gram kulhydrater og 20 g protein lige efter træning, så her er der for mange en oplagt mulighed for at skrue indtaget ned, idet mange indtager 50 g protein og op til 100 g kulhydrat".

Det lyder bare underligt at der er 2 artikler der er så åbenlyst modsigende..

Jeg har skrevet en PM til Thorup som har skrevet den artikler, og linket til det her topic, så må han komme og forklare nærmere

Kunne faktisk være meget interssamt at få et svar på

Skrev engang det her indlæg. Der kom folk da med et forsøg på et svar:

viewtopic.php?t=10257&highlight=uhensigtsm%E6ssigheder

imo er ½g kulhydrat pr kg rigeligt i en pwo shake sammen med 30-50g prortein (alt efter hvordan resten af ens dag ser ud). der er som sagt ikke nogen evidence for at 1g kulhydrat pr kg er nødvendigt for at stimulere den insulin følsomhed som opstår i kroppen efter træning.

imo er ½g kulhydrat pr kg rigeligt i en pwo shake sammen med 30-50g prortein (alt efter hvordan resten af ens dag ser ud). der er som sagt ikke nogen evidence for at 1g kulhydrat pr kg er nødvendigt for at stimulere den insulin følsomhed som opstår i kroppen efter træning.

"Problemet" er jo at i den ene artikler skriver vedkommende at 1g pr. kg kropsvægt er det bedste, og i den anden er der skrevet at over 20g simpelthen er SPILD.

imo er ½g kulhydrat pr kg rigeligt i en pwo shake sammen med 30-50g prortein (alt efter hvordan resten af ens dag ser ud). der er som sagt ikke nogen evidence for at 1g kulhydrat pr kg er nødvendigt for at stimulere den insulin følsomhed som opstår i kroppen efter træning.

"Problemet" er jo at i den ene artikler skriver vedkommende at 1g pr. kg kropsvægt er det bedste, og i den anden er der skrevet at over 20g simpelthen er SPILD.

det ved jeg godt.. det er derfor jeg siger at jeg aldrig har set nogen evidense for at mere end ½g kulhydrat pr kg i en pwo shake er nødvendigt.. men prøv dig lidt frem.

Bare vi er enige :-)

...Kom nu Thorup, forsvar din artikel, hehe

[Rasmus Thorup]

Den artikel jeg har lavet bygger på en artikel fra - så vidt jeg husker - Go-motion.dk.

Skal lige se om jeg kan finde den igen.

[Rasmus Thorup]

"Retningslinjer:
Kulhydrat: Indtag 1 gram med højt glykæmisk indeks pr. kg kropsvægt (gælder normalvægtige!), da denne mængde giver maksimal insulinstigning.
Protein: Indtag 0,25 gram med højt biologisk indeks pr. kg kropsvægt. Visse undersøgelser tyder på at langsomt optageligt protein som kasein er en fordel."

Kilde:
Suzuki M
Glycemic carbohydrates consumed with amino acids or protein right after exercise enhance muscle formation
Nutr Rev, 61(5): 88-94, 2003

Jeg vil lige kigge kilden igennem senere.

fået tjekket det?

fået tjekket det?

....

Mit bud er at informationerne stammer fra Berardi's artikler?:

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nut ... update.htm
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nut ... zzle_1.htm
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nut ... zzle_2.htm
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nut ... cision.htm
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/wom ... erview.htm

Man skal bare vide, at intet er skrevet 100% i sten på området, - man må derfor tage de informationer der er til rådighed, og så derud fra lave den apporach man selv finder mest hensigtsmæssigt, - evt, prøve det af og se hvad der virker bedst:

En ting man også skal bemærke sig er at en gennemsnitslig vægt modstandstrænings omgang, ikke kræver samme mængde carbs til genopfyldning som et par timers løb eller cykling, - og meget af den her forskning er altså lavet på udholdenheds athleter - også noget af det jeg vil vise i følgende - anyways, here goes:

For det første vil jeg nok selv foretrække John Ivy's to bøger "The Performance Zone" og "Nutrient Timing."

'Dr. John Ivy, chair of the dept of Kinesiology at the University of Texas, Austin, reporting on his 25 years of applied research in nutrient timing.'

En lille artikkel:

How Protein Builds Carbohydrate Stores and Aids Muscle
Recovery

Written by:

Edmund R. Burke, Ph.D.


It is well known in the cycling community that
adequate glycogen/carbohydrate stores are important
for optimizing performance during an extended workout.
Research has shown that muscle glycogen stores can
decline on consecutive days of training if one does
not pay attention to post-exercise carbohydrate and
protein consumption. Consequently, adequate glycogen
stores are essential not only for optimizing
performance during competition, but also for
maintaining the quality of training.

Athletes, who wait more than two hours to consume
carbohydrates, restore about 50 percent less muscle
glycogen than those who consumed carbohydrates during
the two-hour period. The difference relates to
insulin, a hormone released by the pancreas that is
essential for the manufacture of muscle glycogen. Not
surprisingly, researchers have focused on enhancing
insulin release during recovery. Increasing
carbohydrate consumption is one way to stimulate
insulin, but the effect of carbohydrate on glycogen
storage reaches a plateau.

John Ivy, Ph.D. from the University of Texas and L.
J. C. van Loon, Ph.D. from the University of
Maastricht, the Netherlands, have shown that protein
when combined with carbohydrate almost doubles the
insulin response.

The ideal ratio of carbohydrate to protein is 4:1
(four grams of carbohydrate to one gram of protein.)
This is also a case where more is less.

Too much protein (fat has a similar effect) taken in
the 0-2 hour post-exercise period slows rehydration
and glycogen replenishment.

A 4:1 ratio which I call the Optimum Recovery Ratio,
or OR2 delivers the benefits of protein without having
a negative effect on rehydration.

In the Maastricht University study cyclists depleted
their glycogen stores during a vigorous, high
intensity cycling workout on three occasions. They
refueled with either a placebo, carbohydrate or
carbohydrate and protein drink. The researchers then
performed a muscle biopsy. Those athletes who took the
carbohydrate and protein mix had 100 percent greater
stores than those who only drank the carbohydrate.
Insulin was also highest in those who consumed the
carbohydrate and protein drink.

Recently Dr. Ivy completed a study on a new sports
drink, which contains carbohydrate and protein in a 4
to 1 ratio as well as the amino acid arginine. This
study will be presented at the American College of
Sports Medicine national meeting.

Dr. Ivy found that the new sports drink, Endurox R4,
compared to a conventional rehydration drink,
increased plasma glucose levels by 17 percent and
produced a 92 percent greater insulin response. Most
impressively, there was almost a two-fold increase in
muscle glycogen storage levels. This study may explain
previous reports that Endurox R4 increased exercise
performance by 55% in subsequent exercise bouts when
compared to a conventional rehydration drink.

Another important nutritive factor in the protein
equation is the amino acid arginine. In research
published in the International Journal of Sports
Nutrition, Drs. Ben Yaspelkis and John Ivy, have shown
carbohydrate-arginine supplementation increased
muscle-glycogen replenishment by 35 percent more than
carbohydrate alone.

Arginine, when added to carbohydrate, makes more
glucose available for glycogen production by
increasing the use of fat, rather than glucose, as an
energy source after exercise. Simply put, arginine
makes glycogen replenishment more efficient.

This research clearly shows that protein can enhance
muscle glycogen replenishment but that is just one
part of the protein story. Protein provides amino
acids, such as glutamine, necessary to rebuild muscle
broken down as a consequence of exercise.

For example, at the end of an intense training
session the catabolic hormone, cortisol, rises.
Cortisol increases muscle protein breakdown. Consuming
a carbohydrate/protein drink that contains glutamine
immediately after a workout or race can blunt this
rise in cortisol thereby reducing protein breakdown.
Glutamine is also important for fueling the immune
system. Low glutamine stores can suppress the immune
system, making you more susceptible to colds and other
infections during periods of hard training and
competition.

Here's another bit of information that supports the
use of a carbohydrate- and protein-containing
post-workout drink: amino acids and dipeptides (found
in whey protein) significantly increase the absorption
of water from the intestines. Therefore, putting
protein in your post-workout supplement may not only
help replenish glycogen stores, it may also help
rehydrate your muscles!

The results of these studies are meaningful for any
cyclist who wants to maintain muscle glycogen stores
and protect their muscles and immune system from
damage.

Protein, especially when consumed in the correct
proportion with carbohydrate, is an essential
nutritive component in speeding recovery following
exercise. Compared to solid foods, a carbohydrate and
protein combination drink will also empty quicker from
the stomach and help rehydrate the body more
effectively. The result - improved cycling performance
on your next workout.

Kort opridset:

Ivy og Portman, referere til noget de kalder "30W15." 'To maximize recovery, one needs to consume a workout beverage prior to one's workout and during one's workout' ' "30" meaning the pre-workout beverage is taken 30 minutes before one's workout. "W" meaning a beverage is consumed during the workout. And "15" meaning a the post workout beverage is ingested within 15 minutes following the workout.'

De anbefaler en ratio på 4:1 carb:protein for post exercise, - hvilken Astrup iøvrigt også nævner i flere bøger - her vil jeg dog igen gerne lige huske jer på det jeg skrev først, omkring udholdnings idræt vs. modstands træning.

Et hurtigt studie, jeg poster kun konklussionen:

THE EFFECT OF CARBOHYDRATE-PROTEIN SUPPLEMENTATION
ON EDURANCE PERFORMANCE DURING EXERCISE OF VARYING
INTENSITY
Peter Res, Zhenping Ding, Matthew O. Witzman, Robert
C. Sprague, IV and John L. Ivy. Exercise Physiology
and Metabolism Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology
and Health Education, The University of Texas, Austin,
TX.

Conclusions. In summary, we found that the addition of
protein to a carbohydrate supplement in a 4 to 1 ratio
enhanced aerobic endurance performance by 24% above
that which occurred with carbohydrate alone. The
results suggest that the addition of protein to a
carbohydrate supplement is of benefit to the endurance
athlete


Et par andre studier, der er interesante i diskussionen - så kan i drage jeres egne konklussioner:

-------------
Leucine-Enriched Essential Amino Acid and Carbohydrate Ingestion
Following Resistance Exercise Enhances mTOR Signaling and Protein
Synthesis in Human Muscle

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab (December 4, 2007).
doi:10.1152/ajpendo.00582.2007

Hans C. Dreyer1, Micah J. Drummond1, Bart Pennings1, Satoshi Fujita2,
Erin L. Glynn3, David L Chinkes4, Shaheen Dhanani2, Elena Volpi2, and
Blake B. Rasmussen1*

We have recently shown that resistance exercise and ingestion of
essential amino acids with carbohydrate (EAA+CHO) can independently
stimulate mTOR signaling and muscle protein synthesis in humans.

Providing an EAA+CHO solution post-exercise can further increase
muscle protein synthesis. Therefore, we hypothesized that enhanced
mTOR signaling may be responsible for the greater muscle protein
synthesis when leucine enriched EAA+CHO are ingested during post-
exercise recovery.

Sixteen male subjects were randomized to one of two groups (Control
or EAA+CHO). The EAA+CHO group ingested the nutrient solution 1 hr
after resistance exercise. mTOR signaling was assessed by
immunoblotting from repeated muscle biopsy samples. Mixed muscle
fractional synthetic rate (FSR) was measured using stable isotope
techniques. Muscle protein synthesis and 4E-BP1 phosphorylation
during exercise were significantly reduced (P<0.05).

Post-exercise FSR was elevated above baseline in both groups at 1 hr
but was even further elevated in the EAA+CHO group at 2 hr post-
exercise (P<0.05). Increased FSR was associated with enhanced
phosphorylation of mTOR and S6K1 (P<0.05). Akt phosphorylation was
elevated at 1 hr, returned to baseline by 2 hr in the Control group,
but remained elevated in the EAA+CHO group (P<0.05). 4E-BP1
phosphorylation returned to baseline during recovery in Control but
became elevated when EAA+CHO was ingested (P<0.05). eEF2
phosphorylation decreased at 1- and 2 hrs post-exercise to a similar
extent in both groups (P<0.05).

Our data suggest that enhanced activation of the mTOR signaling
pathway is playing a role in the greater synthesis of muscle proteins
when resistance exercise is followed by EAA+CHO ingestion.

---------------

"The composition of the nutrient solution consisted of 8 of the
essential amino acids (absent tryptophan) and carbohydrate mixed with
a flavored, non-caloric beverage to aid in palatability. In our study
we provided approximately 20 grams of "leucine"-enriched essential
amino acids and 30 grams of carbohydrate.
The leucine enriched EAA+CHO solution consisted of essential amino
acids in the following proportions: histidine (8%), isoleucine (8%),
leucine (35%), lysine (12%), methionine (3%), phenylalanine (14%),
threonine (10%), and valine (10%) and has been used by us previously
(21)."
21 Fujita S, Dreyer HC, Drummond MJ, Glynn EL, Cadenas JG, Yoshizawa
F, Volpi E and Rasmussen BB. Nutrient Signalling in the Regulation of
Human Muscle Protein Synthesis. J Physiol 2007.

---------------

Combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate
increases postexercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male
subjects

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 288: E645-E653, 2005.

Beverages. Subjects received a beverage volume of 3 ml/kg every
30 min to ensure a given dose of 0.3 g carbohydrate/kg (50% as
glucose and 50% as maltodextrin) and 0.2 g/kg of a protein
hydrolysate every hour, with or without the addition of 0.1 g•kg–1•h–
1 leucine.

---------------

Hyperinsulinaemia, hyperaminoacidaemia and post-exercise muscle
anabolism: the search for the optimal recovery drink
A H Manninen

British Journal of Sports Medicine 2006;40:900-905
Thereafter, the subjects were
studied for 3.5 h during which they ingested CHO only (0.8 g/kg/h),
CHO + protein hydrolysate (0.8 and 0.4 g/kg/h, respectively), or CHO
+ protein hydrolysate + free leucine (0.8, 0.4, and 0.1 g/kg/h,
respectively) in a double-blind fashion.

--------------------

Effects of increasing insulin secretion on acute postexercise blood
glucose
disposal.

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006 Feb;38(2):268-75.

Kaastra B, Manders RJ, Van Breda E, Kies A, Jeukendrup AE, Keizer HA,
Kuipers H,
Van Loon LJ.
Thereafter, subjects were studied for 3.5
h during which they ingested carbohydrate (CHO: 0.8 g.kg.h),
carbohydrate and a
protein hydrolysate (CHO-PRO: 0.8 and 0.4 g.kg.h, respectively), or
carbohydrate, a protein hydrolysate, and free leucine (CHO-PRO-LEU:
0.8, 0.4,
and 0.1 g.kg.h, respectively) in a double-blind fashion.

Jeg beklager at det lige er gået ret stærkt, men suma sumarum er, - at jeg tror de fleste vil klare sig ganske udemærkedet på et par bananer eller nogle vindruer, og en god bodylab whey protein shake.

M.V.H
Helio
PS; jeg beklager indlægets, kvalitet, det gik lidt hurtigt, men så er der ihvertfald lidt at se på.